lil
New Member
Posts: 19
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Post by lil on May 3, 2013 8:22:55 GMT -5
As you are aware, Devonshire is full and will not have space for next year's JK class. With current enrolment trends and the implementation of Full Day Kindergarten in 2014, we will need to divert approximately 1/3 of the school population to other schools in the area. Elmdale, the closest EFI school to the west of Devonshire, is in a similar situation. Area English schools Hilson, Connaught, Cambridge, and Centenial as well as the local 7/8 school, Fisher Park, have space. We need to figure out how to best utilize the space available in our community.
Please understand that EVERYONE is affected by this. The board's original proposal to move only the part of our catchment south of
the Queensway is not part of the discussion anymore.
The Near West Working Group (made up of school and community representatives from Hilson through to Elgin) meets every Monday evening. We are constantly receiving ideas for how to solve the capacity issues at Devonshire and Elmdale from the work that the schools have done with their parent committees, from community organizations, and from individuals. A few themes are starting to emerge and some preliminary scenarios have been developed. We have 6 scenarios at this point in time and are planning to discuss 3 of them (with a variation on one) in more detail on Monday. The other 3, and any new ones that come up, will be discussed the following Monday.
At this point in time, we would like some feedback from Devonshire parents on the 3 scenarios below. Please note that we don't really know if these scenarios are feasible or not. They may be good/bad/a bit of both! We're just looking for your ideas and would like to hear your answers to these 4 questions. In your opinion:
1. What are the strengths and weaknesses of each of these scenarions?
2. What opportunities do you see emerging from each?
3. What risks/threats/challenges do you perceive as a result?
4. Do you have any changes/ammendments to suggest?
We are in preliminary stages and would like to treat this as a brainstorming excerise. In other words, we need to keep open minds and accept all ideas and comments as useful. We will have discussion at a later time to allow for debate.
Scenario D
i. Dual track Connaught (K-6 English and K-6 EFI) (add Devonshire EFI and eastern Elmdale ENG kids)
ii. Fisher Park adds JK-6 EFI program (from eastern Elmdale catchment), becomes JK-8
Scenario D - variation
i. JK-5 ENG/EFI Connaught (west portion of Devonshire to Connaught, and eastern portion of Elmdale)
ii. Grade 6-8 Fisher Park (ENG/EFI, current 7/8 programs stay)
iii. JK-5 EFI Elmdale and Devonshire
iv. Elmdale English redirected to Connaught and Hilson
Scenario E
i. Connaught JK-6 ENG/EFI (takes Elmdale ENG and K-6 EFI from modified boundary from Devonshire)
ii. Elmdale English redirected to Connaught and Hilson (no changes to Elmdale EFI boundaries – keep portables)
Scenario F
i. Connaught becomes EFI school, takes EFI students from both Elmdale and Devonshire
ii. Connaught English split/redirected to Cambridge, Centennial, and Hilson English schools
iii. Elmdale Eng redirected to Cambridge and Hilson
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Post by patriciabood on May 4, 2013 14:04:37 GMT -5
Here are my thoughts (looking purely at the schools / grades and assuming that the numbers could work with the right boundary adjustments):
Scenario D:
- Strengths and weaknesses / challenges for the Fisher JK-8 are identified under a separate document / forum topic folder.
- adding Connaught with dual track is very appealing as it creates a walkable neighbourhood option. I believe there is also a forum topic folder discussing that option, including the pros and cons of a dual track school, which covers any comments I might have.
Scenario D Variation:
- Strengths are that it keeps extra capacity available at Fisher for upcoming expected capacity needs, thus minimizing a need to re-assess Fisher in a couple of years. By adding Gr. 6 to Fisher it puts the kids that could benefit most from the extra Fisher yard and facilities in that school, and eliminates the need to modify the school for younger kids.
- concerns would be the limited # of Gr. 6 kids (from ~3 schools) to the large Gr. 7-8 feeder population from significantly more schools. I think the concerns with that approach were mentioned in the interim solution discussion. I may not find that concern insurmountable, but that issue is better addressed by parents with kids nearing Gr. 6.
Scenario E:
- If this could work based on the right numbers in each schools and grades, this seems like an ideal option from a Devonshire parent perspective. Can't speak re Elmdale portables but that wouldn't be my first choice.
Scenario F:
- This is a great solution for EFI kids.
- This is likely a less than ideal solution for English program kids. Consider walkability for English program kids living near Connaught if they have to go to Hilson, Centennial or Cambridge (on the assumption they would have gone to those schools if they lived closer).
- As well, I believe that this solution could require a full accommodation review process (as we would be moving an entire school population our of Connaught triggers a 2 year ARC process). The school board would have to confirm this, as I am just speculating based on what I have read.
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Post by lisawhite on May 5, 2013 17:50:27 GMT -5
Without any attempt to debate, I suspect parents will identify the various scenario strengths and weaknesses differently based on how they prioritize the core principals of:
1) Sheltering younger students from older ones vs. keeping siblings together longer and reducing school transitions.
2) Single track schools vs. dual track schools
The thoughts that come to my mind are:
Scenario D
A major weakness of most scenarios involving Fisher Park is the top-heavy number of 7/8 students to younger students. In this scenario 2 new EFI programs are introduced which will spread the younger EFI children even thinner between schools, thereby accentuating that imbalance at FP even further.
Scenario E
This is not at all an ideal scenario for the Devonshire parents, like me, who strongly prioritize a single-track EFI school.
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Post by kerryanderson on May 6, 2013 9:22:40 GMT -5
Lisa has summed up the challenge of this, regarding our different views on:
1) Sheltering younger students from older ones vs. keeping siblings together longer and reducing school transitions.
2) Single track schools vs. dual track schools
Stengthes/weaknesses: I view dual tracking as a weakness (D, D variation, E), won't go in to the rationale for that as this isn't the place. Same for any scenario where JK - 6 numbers are significantly less that the 7-8 cohort at Fisher (D, D variation). JK - 8 (D) would be a strength IF the ratio was not unbalanced. Strength of E is that the change on broader community is minimal, as opposed to F, which i personally would really like and think makes sense given the numbers of families choosing EFI(but i imagine it might be hard to find a Connaught parent that would support it).
Opportunities: While i don't see this as an ideal outcome, dual tracking Connaught (or any school)would allow children to attend a school closer to where they live.
Risks/threats/challenges: our current neighbourhood friendships, as we all have different opinions! ;-)
Changes/amendments: n/a
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Post by vickysmallman on May 6, 2013 9:40:55 GMT -5
Scenario D
i. Dual track Connaught (K-6 English and K-6 EFI) (add Devonshire EFI and eastern Elmdale ENG kids)
ii. Fisher Park adds JK-6 EFI program (from eastern Elmdale catchment), becomes JK-8
Strengths: brings Connaught closer to capacity, provides walkable option for many kids and new North/south boundaries for all schools may make more sense for families who walk to school. Does not displace English program kids at Connaught and ensures strong 7-8 program at Fisher Park so that all kids can benefit from that program.
Weaknesses: renos and reconfiguration needed to make FP safe for younger kids. Worried about FP being overcapacity in the short to medium term. Many of the concerns are elaborated in the other thread
Opportunities: Better use of Connaught's resources.
Threats: Are there cost/logistical disadvantages of establishing 2 new EFI programs? Can we staff up in time? Concerned we won't be able to accommodate everything at FP in this scenario.
Amendments:
Scenario D - variation
i. JK-5 ENG/EFI Connaught (west portion of Devonshire to Connaught, and eastern portion of Elmdale)
ii. Grade 6-8 Fisher Park (ENG/EFI, current 7/8 programs stay)
iii. JK-5 EFI Elmdale and Devonshire
iv. Elmdale English redirected to Connaught and Hilson
Strengths: I like the 6-8 configuration, as it gives kids coming from multiple feeder schools more time to develop a sense of community. Moving the grade 6 to FP would eliminate the need for costly renos and reconfigurations at FP. Redirecting Elmdale English strengthens english programs at Connaught and Hilson, and helps ensure a balance between the programs at Connaught. Adding EFI to Connaught helps utilize space at the school and would also provide walkable option to more families. Numbers are more likely to work in the long term.
Weaknesses: I am not worried about dual-track schools so I don't see that as a weakness. Efforts would need to be made to ensure balanced resources into both programs.
Opportunities: Connaught is currently underutilized; this would help the community use this beautiful school more effectively. I think there is a lot to be gained from having diverse kids interact with each other, even if they are in different programs. If we could build the 6-8 program by bringing kids from schools other than Elmdale, Devonshire and Connaught into the mix, we could have a stronger middle school program and kids would be able to take advantage of the great music/art programs they have established there.
Threats: Needing to ensure balance of resources in dual-track scenarios. Ensuring strong numbers of grade 6 kids in 7/8 situation. Not paying attention to transition needs across the board.
Amendments: consider moving other grade 6 students from other schools to bring grade 6 numbers up.
Scenario E
i. Connaught JK-6 ENG/EFI (takes Elmdale ENG and K-6 EFI from modified boundary from Devonshire)
ii. Elmdale English redirected to Connaught and Hilson (no changes to Elmdale EFI boundaries – keep portables)
Strengths: Connaught strengths remain the same; walkable, good community solution. Changes to English boundaries may strengthen Connaught's english numbers to ensure better balance.
Weaknesses:same re: connaught. weakness is that portables still in use
Opportunities: similar to Connaught points above
Threats: How sustainable are Emdale's portables in the long term?
Amendments: Could minor amendments in Elmdale eastern boundaries relieve pressure on Elmdale?
Scenario F
i. Connaught becomes EFI school, takes EFI students from both Elmdale and Devonshire
ii. Connaught English split/redirected to Cambridge, Centennial, and Hilson English schools
iii. Elmdale Eng redirected to Cambridge and Hilson
Strengths: A new EFI program in the area, single track, walkable for EFI kids, takes FP out of the equation.
Weaknesses: English program students, many of whom are low income and/or new immigrants, some of whom have special needs, no longer have a walkable school option. I have some serious equity concerns here.
Opportunities:
Threats: I think it could have some serious negative impacts within the communities
Amendments: I don't see any that would make this option more appealing to me.
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megk
Junior Member
Posts: 92
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Post by megk on May 7, 2013 9:53:24 GMT -5
Hi Lil - So what was the discussion like around each of the above scenarios? Maybe you can give us some insight on how it all went.
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Post by Nicholas Olmstead on May 8, 2013 9:31:53 GMT -5
Scenario D:
I like the dual track for Connaught but I wonder how strong an EFI program would be at FP without some corresponding feeder school changes. It would obviously relieve some of the pressure on both Elmdale and Devonshire, which is the point of this exercise, but how large a cohort would it be compared to the 7/8 FP contingent? I also worry about the school security retrofit that would be needed putting early grades at FP. The Board wasn't able to finish Devonshire's reno's on time and I have NO confidence they will have any work done at FP by September 2014. Longer term it has potential to work if there is an increase in EFI demand in the area since there would be space at FP for the kids (or potential to rework boundaries to get more EFI kids going to FP.)
Scenario D: (variation)
I think this is as close to a perfect scenario as I'm going to see. It ensures a vibrant English program in the area at Connaught, and relieves some of the pressure on both Elmdale and Devonshire. The feeder schools would have to be adjusted for FP to ensure the 6's don't get swallowed completely but I think that's possible. The English population at Hilson would likely increase slightly as well since the Elmdale English would likely be split. This one would also be less costly for the Board since a retrofit of FP wouldn't be as involved (hopefully) and it would still make most of the schools walkable with little adjustments (a Parkdale crossing guard.) Hopefully introducing the EFI to FP isn't as involved as it would be with Connaught (we're affecting half a school population here... are we close to needing an official ARC?) This doesn't do anything for Cambridge though but they're at what, 70-75%? Do we need to find a solution to get them that extra 10-20%? It would seem to be they're 'future proofed' against population increases with the available space as it is...
Scenario E:
The dreamer in me loves this scenario. Keeping all the kids K-6 in each of their schools would be fantastic. The realist in me knows this doesn't do it since there would still be portables at Elmdale and still leaves them vulnerable to overcrowding in the coming years. I would like to have something that provides more stability over a longer timeframe.
Scenario F:
I could be wrong but I seriously doubt there is enough EFI population in the area to fill Elmdale, Devonshire AND Connaught with strong EFI programs. Sure, this does help Cambridge and Hilson with their numbers in their respective English programs, but getting these kids to and from school would be a nightmare (not walkable for a lot of them I'm sure.) I'd need to see some numbers on this one to know for sure. Besides, changing up a whole school requires a full blown ARC so this one is out anyway... At least this one would leave FP out of the picture though which is a plus. We might be needing that back as a high school when this bubble ages.
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Post by marthadulmage on May 8, 2013 15:39:29 GMT -5
The numbers for scenario F work out perfectly - that's why I suggested it. It puts an extra EFI school in the heart of the demand, without having to use Fisher Park. Of the English schools in our study area, Connaught has the lowest enrolment (40%), despite having a much larger catchment area than Cambridge (60%). The north area of D1 should already be going to Cambridge, along with everyone else on the east side of the tracks, so Cambridge numbers should be even higher.
I'm an EFI parent so this next comment is hypothetical (although son #2 could end up in English, who knows?): If I were the parent of a student in a program that had declining enrolment across the city, I think I would prefer that my child be in a strong program that wasn't in danger of closing in a few years, even if it were further away. Cambridge would be a single-track English school and could continue to "specialize" in ESL. I would be inclined to make the Hilson and Cambridge boundaries very flexible - if the child was leaning toward taking MFI, they could choose Hilson, if they wanted an ESL English school, they could choose Cambridge. There are benefits to having larger programs. My feeling is that if we don't close one of the English programs now, and English continues its steady decline with the increasing popularity of EFI and MFI, I don't see how all of these schools will be able to maintain viable English programs into the future.
I also want to make a point about walkability for the English kids. Don't assume that Cambridge and Hilson aren't walkable from Hintonburg. I've just been looking at some of the Board's maps, and from what I can decipher many of the Connaught kids would still be within the 1.6 walk zone for either school. We need better data from the Board though to know for sure.
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lil
New Member
Posts: 19
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Post by lil on May 8, 2013 20:01:41 GMT -5
Thanks to everyone for your input - very helpful! The discussion was lively and as soon as the notes are available, we'll post them. We did a full SWOT (Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, Threats) for each of the options. We're populating a SWOT document so you'll see all of the points raised for each. In a nutshell, there was little appetite for F and it has been shelved for now. The idea of putting in an EFI program at Connaught is a serious consideration but there were some fairly major weaknesses/threats with scenarios D-E. The Working Group decided a few weeks ago to try to first come up with a solution(s) that respects the Board's recommended grade groupings (JK - 6, JK - 8, 7 - 12, 9 - 12). The Group recognizes that there are exceptions to those grade groupings - they currently exist throughout the Board - so this is a starting position only. We'll be looking at how to combine the best aspects of D-E to create a more workable scenario.
Scenarios A - C are up for discussion next Monday so I'll post them in a seperate thread for feedback.
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megk
Junior Member
Posts: 92
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Post by megk on May 9, 2013 5:53:50 GMT -5
“The Working Group decided a few weeks ago to try to first come up with a solution(s) that respects the Board's recommended grade groupings (JK - 6, JK - 8, 7 - 12, 9 - 12).”
-> Throughout this process, from the interim solution until now, we have heard that the teachers do not think 7&8 split work. The parents do not think the 7&8 split work. The kids are open to 6, 7 & 8. Why is the working group siding with the board, when everyone who is directly affected wants to look into 6, 7, & 8?
-> Putting in K-8 at Fisher Park, would only benefit a very small group of students, so all the feeder school kids outside of the new small boundary area would continue to be affected by the 7 & 8 issues at Fisher Park. So the problems would remain.
-> In no scenario of K-8 at Fisher Park has it been made a true K-8, all the feeder schools still remain, which means 2 separate schools in Fisher Park. The K- 6 kids will not benefit from getting to know the 7 & 8 teachers, since they will be isolated from that big group.
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Post by tcahill on May 9, 2013 7:06:11 GMT -5
I too share Vicky's concerns with Scenario F, and I'm glad it's been shelved, especially since the Connaught community is not an active participant in this process. Removing a walkable English program in this community will change its socioeconomic profile and appeal to a wide demographic. Cambridge and Hilson are NOT really walkable for that age group from OCISO or the women's shelter, for example.
The other scenarios appeal equally to me. As the parent of a child in Grades 1 and 3, I actually have no problem with sending the grade 6s to Fisher, since it might give them more time to adjust to a larger school population, and the administration would get more of a chance to get to know the children.
I like the idea of dual-tracking from the point of view that the school would have a more diverse population. It might also encourage those families who might have been on-the-fence about sending their kids to EFI, since the kids wouldn't have to change schools if it turns out to be not for them. I have heard anecdotally, however, that the english-only kids at dual-track schools sometimes feel like second-class citizens, which would really be unfortunate.
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Post by karinaroman on May 9, 2013 8:47:23 GMT -5
I would agree that our ARC reps and, in fact, all the ARC reps should care a little less about the board's recommended grade groupings.
I also think those parents who are concerned about dual track should be given more information about how prevalent it actually is in the board and how and where it works well (i.e. at Elgin) so that their concerns can be perhaps put to rest or at least that their concerns are based on a fuller picture.
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